gay - hamjens baz?

[alijsh]

Why would they do that instead of using say, tweezers or wax? I don't see the point.

threading leaves a perfect removal. besides, the only thing you need is just a piece of thread (it has no cost). And I don't think waxing (we say mum (موم), if I have understood the English word correctly) is used for face but for leg, etc. In Iran, for areas other than face, we have a depilator powder called vâjebi (واجبی) that has been used since ancient times. It's mixed with hot water and then the paste is used.

[Shannenms]

Hamjensgarayi and Hamjensbazi are both completely peculiar to me, I think they are absolutely nonesense, because this kind of affair between two males or females has never been considered in persian history any form of expressing affection; Gay doesn't mean anything also, the streotypical view on this is that there is a man who is virtous enough to overcome the other sexually!
So there is in strict sense a doer, actor, who is glorified, and a done. acted upon, who is contempted, because of not having enough power to get better of the former.
This kind of definition goes well with the reason why there is no specific common word in our literature to signify both of the parties. As for the female homosexuality, on this account that there is no such relation, as stated above about the male homosexuality, between the both female parties, there is not only an specific word to it but also it has never been regarded to be existing among the women.

To conclude, I strongly think that with this historical background, all the males in Iran are potentially gay, or love to be so only as an actor, though they may deny it (there is a saying about it: Honar nazde irAniAnast o bas!), but there is no lesbian at all.

[alijsh]

I totally agree with whatever Shannenms said.

[Sisyphe]

To conclude, I strongly think that with this historical background, all the males in Iran are potentially gay, or love to be so only as an actor, though they may deny it (there is a saying about it: Honar nazde irAniAnast o bas!), but there is no lesbian at all.

Could you elaborate on this?

[alijsh]

Could you elaborate on this?

I think we also need you to elaborate on it in the West. Here, we deal with agent (subject, doer) and patient (object, done-upon). Do you understand? In the West, I think both partners can be both agent and patient. That is, we don't deal with agent and patient in the West. So we don't have homosexuality as is found in the West and I hope you now understand the words of Ahmadinejad.

[Sisyphe]

Everyone might not want to read this, so I'll put it in spoiler mode...It's not too graphic, but I don't want to offend anyone...even though the thread is obviously about homosexuality and terms to describe it.

In English, at least we'd call the 'agent' a top or less commonly active. We'd call the 'patient' the bottom or less commonly, passive. I would never say agent or patient, and I'd look at someone blankly if I didn't understand these terms by context, actually. What are these words in Persian? You're right about partners...I'm gay, and I haven't met anyone who strictly was active or passive...it's more of a 'mood' thing. You do whatever you both feel like. How is it there? I have to say that I still don't agree with Ahmadinejad...desire for the same sex, no matter how it is manifested, is homosexual desire. The fact that there is a stigma and resistance to calling it homosexual if you are on one side of the relationship doesn't change the sentiments that are there, as far as I am concerned.

Moderator note - I removed the spoiler tag. People who find our posts offensive can leave immediately. Nobody has obliged you to read them and get offended. Thanks for your understanding.

[ego]

I understand what Shannenms and alijsh say because it was like that in Greece too traditionally. I mean, in older times there was no such term as "homosexuality". There were just men who liked to make sex to men, and this was not necessarily condemned. As far as they were "correct" in their social life, didn't provoke etc, there was a kind of silence law. On the other hand the passive man was seen as an ill, worthless creature.
In modern times this has started to change, at least among gays, and the modern way to percieve homosexuality gets more common.
Still however, if my dad finds out I had sex with a man as an active, he will be worried but as long as I have relations with women too he won't die of anxiety. But if he finds out I was the passive, he will first kick me out of home and then die of sorrow and shame

[alijsh]

(Freedom of speech: People who find these posts rude, etc. can leave. I don't see any reason to use spoiler and I'll remove the spoiler from Sisyphe's post right away.)

Ego, it's interesting that our cultures are so close. What you said (you and your father) is completely imaginable for me. The reaction of fathers can differ though. Your father is very good because if my father finds out I had sex with a man even as an active, he will still kick me out of home Here many boys play (you know what I mean) with each other but it's just a play. As they become adult (about 16+) they naturally end the play. It's really just a play of child days. Perhaps out of curiosity, etc. I have never heard about homosexuality among girls. It's just among boys. How about there?

[Sisyphe]

As you might have imagined, lesbianism is for the most part socially-acceptable here. Lesbians, for some reason, are more able to keep their orientation from becoming the figurative talk of the town, and face less homophobia and hate crimes on average. It's definitely a double standard...if a guy is gay, then it basically becomes a part of his identity, for better and for worse.

I think I understand what you mean now about Ahmadinejad saying there are no homosexuals in Iran. My assessment of how you and ego have described 'homosexual' relationships there is that it makes sex between guys shameful and doesn't really allow for an actual emotional relationship.

Now, let me tell you guys that here, parents finding out that you're gay is a whole different scenario. My dad didn't die of sorrow and shame when I told him, but he was furious. I think his first question was "So which side do you want to be on?"...I swear, I could have died then. I didn't give him a straight answer...I don't think parents here care whether you are passive or active, if you're gay at all, they're totally pissed off, usually. Here, gay guys sometimes have sex with the opposite sex - that's called being homoflexible. I would never tell my parents I'm homoflexible though....then they'd have hope that I'D end up with a girl one day, which I don't see happening over a long period of time.

Alijsh, I've been in a relationship with a Persian guy before...and it was not a strictly sexual relationship. What would you make of that?

BTW, one stylistic thing for the both of you...if you say "if he find out that X", you are implying that X actually happened. So unless you both really meant that you don't want your fathers to know that you had gay sex (:P), you should say, "if my father were to find out, that I had had (yes, 'had' is repeated on purpose) sex with a man" or something to that effect. That sounds more deferential.

[alijsh]

"if he find out that X"

Thanks Sisyphe. I'll write about it later. Since Ego and me had the same mistake I have a question from Ego: regarding Persian, in "if he find out", the "find out" comes in present subjunctive and since English doesn't have such a tense I used the indicative. How about it in Greek? Did you think in your own language when writing in English and it is the reason for the mistake? However, you may don't use the subjunctive for this purpose.

[Sisyphe]

I wouldn't call it a mistake. I usually don't correct your English - nothing either of you say hampers comprehension, of course. But I wanted you to be aware of the ambiguity in your messages.

[loqu]

Here, gay guys sometimes have sex with the opposite sex - that's called being homoflexible.

that practice is really frowned upon around here... a gay guy who has sex with any woman is considered a faker or a man who lacks sensibility.

The discussion is really interesting

[Sisyphe]

Here, gay guys sometimes have sex with the opposite sex - that's called being homoflexible.

that practice is really frowned upon around here... a gay guy who has sex with any woman is considered a faker or a man who lacks sensibility.

The discussion is really interesting

That's a good point...it's frowned upon here too. But it's perhaps a good parallel to homosexuality by heterosexuals in Iran, don't you think?

[most-wanted]

No. Don't surprise but he is almost right. generally speaking, Iranians living abroad are exagerating. It's a trick they use to gain green card, residency, or whatever else it is called. Saying that you're gay and you fear from the Iranian gvernment and its punishment is far better, easier, etc. than seeking asylum (panâhande-ye siyâsi shodan) and living in camp. I'll write you about homsexuality in Iran in Persian, in your personal thread and let's see whether I'm wrong or right. However, you must enlighten me about some things Frankly, I prefer to discuss only with you but anybody knowing Persian can participate.

I agree with you.Ahmadinezhad was almost right.
No offensive to anyone.I believe that being gay is just someone's pesonal desire.But it does annoy me to see a naked man.
It is absolutly wrong to say that we have gays in Afghanistan.I haven't seen anyone who loves to have sexual relationship with a man being a man.
We don't have the word for that like most of countries in Africa.
But in these countries no doubt there are some peoople who are losers and wants to have sexual relationship with Children.Those are called Bachabaaz in Afghanistan or maybe Iran.They dressed them in girls cloths to dance for them.This story is clearly told by Khalid Hoseini's book.The kite runner.
So is it ok to announce Gay right in these countries ?
And for those say that they are physically unable to have sex with a woman.There are many medicine for them.

[ego]

(Freedom of speech: People who find these posts rude, etc. can leave. I don't see any reason to use spoiler and I'll remove the spoiler from Sisyphe's post right away.)

Indeed, I couldn't understand why Sisyphe added it.

Ego, it's interesting that our cultures are so close. What you said (you and your father) is completely imaginable for me. The reaction of fathers can differ though. Your father is very good because if my father finds out I had sex with a man even as an active, he will still kick me out of home Here many boys play (you know what I mean) with each other but it's just a play. As they become adult (about 16+) they naturally end the play. It's really just a play of child days. Perhaps out of curiosity, etc. I have never heard about homosexuality among girls. It's just among boys. How about there?

I said that if I already had normal relations with women and then just an affair with a man, then perhaps he would just be shocked but wouldn't kick me out. He would hope it was just a bad incidence. But if he were to know ( ) that I'm a regular gay, even active, of course he would kick me out first, deny to talk to me for ever and then have a heart attack. And I am not exaggerating.

About lesbians: Unlike what Sisyphe described for Canada, lesbians are even more in the closet than gays here. Being a lesbian is seen as even more uncommon and unnatural.

Since Ego and me had the same mistake I have a question from Ego: regarding Persian, in "if he find out", the "find out" comes in present subjunctive and since English doesn't have such a tense I used the indicative. How about it in Greek? Did you think in your own language when writing in English and it is the reason for the mistake? However, you may don't use the subjunctive for this purpose.

In Greek too we use the subjunctive there. Although, in this specific sentence we use the aorist subjunctive and not present. Yeah, perhaps you are right, never thought of it. The correct form that Sisyphe provided is more distant from the form we use in our languages than the indicative. I could never think of it

[ego]

I wouldn't call it a mistake. I usually don't correct your English - nothing either of you say hampers comprehension, of course. But I wanted you to be aware of the ambiguity in your messages.

Thank you very very much for your correction. Finally someone has corrected my English

[ego]

No. Don't surprise but he is almost right. generally speaking, Iranians living abroad are exagerating. It's a trick they use to gain green card, residency, or whatever else it is called. Saying that you're gay and you fear from the Iranian gvernment and its punishment is far better, easier, etc. than seeking asylum (panâhande-ye siyâsi shodan) and living in camp. I'll write you about homsexuality in Iran in Persian, in your personal thread and let's see whether I'm wrong or right. However, you must enlighten me about some things Frankly, I prefer to discuss only with you but anybody knowing Persian can participate.

I agree with you.Ahmadinezhad was almost right.
No offensive to anyone.I believe that being gay is just someone's pesonal desire.But it does annoy me to see a naked man.
It is absolutly wrong to say that we have gays in Afghanistan.I haven't seen anyone who loves to have sexual relationship with a man being a man.
We don't have the word for that like most of countries in Africa.
But in these countries no doubt there are some peoople who are losers and wants to have sexual relationship with Children.Those are called Bachabaaz in Afghanistan or maybe Iran.They dressed them in girls cloths to dance for them.This story is clearly told by Khalid Hoseini's book.The kite runner.
So is it ok to announce Gay right in these countries ?
And for those say that they are physically unable to have sex with a woman.There are many medicine for them.

I respect your opinion but I totally disagree. Homosexuality is as old as heterosexuality among humans and it exists in all places and all civilisations. Just some cultures oppress it more than others.
I can imagine that you have never met an Afghani gay. But believe me, 100 years ago you couldn't meet even 1 Greek looking like gay either. They were there, just well covered. Today you can see many gays around because they are freer to express their "oddity"

[Sisyphe]

This is really an enlightening thread. I know that when people from the Western World think of homosexuality in the Middle East, we think of people strung up on a tree. Although the situation for gays is far from perfect, it's good to have a more well-rounded impression.

But if he were to know(8))

There you go. Now it sounds more like a theoretical sentence. I didn't realize you wanted your English corrected. It's interesting that lesbians are more closeted there.

Most wanted, I have to agree with ego. I know Afghan gays who are open about their sexual preference, and who have been romantically involved with other guys. Now...either Western society managed to corrupt them (:lol:), which I highly doubt, of course, or they already knew they were gay.

I'm curious...Do you believe that it's a person's 'personal desire' to actually have sex with someone of the same sex, that it's their 'personal desire' to be attracted to the same sex, or both? And what, to your knowledge, would be the general Afghan opinion about this?

[Shannenms]

I cannot possibly have sex with any guy. But I can't imagine that I can have sex with any girl as a lesbian, that's totally impossible to think about that. I have never heard my friends address each other in this way, though it is common among the boys, that they consider it as a joke, though they maybe would do it. If I were to have sex with a man, my father ( but not my brother) would surely kill me, but if this case were with a girl I don't know what would happen.
Regarding gayism in the very sense wihich I described exists in Iran, as far as I know it is found only in the societies which there is girl virginity is considered the most important thing, as is here in Iran, hence there are created a nunber of bizarre sex attitudes such as gayism, lesbianism or in worst case having anal intercourse with a girl, as is very common among the mollas and akhunds in Iran(I am completely and statistically aware of that)
.
In my view, there is no such things at all, all the gays or lesbian are just the fakers who as Marcel Proust said only are satisfied with the opposite sex and want to try it with the same sex.

These terms and the reality of them in Iran are exactly the same as incest( which, likewise, cannot be translated in a single word). Homosexually, incest in whatever sense are bad, forbidden, meaningless...., the only thing which truely exists is the relation of an abuser and abused, raper and raped.

[Sisyphe]

There seems to be a near-fanatical importance placed on female virginity in the Middle East, that I find slightly unsettling. Female circumcision is another brutal manifestation of this 'obsession', also, not coincidentally, imho, practiced in parts of the Middle East. Perhaps its a religious thing though...I have to disagree with Proust...Homophobia comes in many forms, and one of the most significant of these is self-hate. Proust's opinion is only an example of this self-hate based on sexual orientation. Speaking of literature...your greatest literary masters from Iran have written many poems with homoerotic themes. I'm especially thinking of Golestân e Sa'di. Hâfez, Rumi and others are also no strangers to homoerotic themes. What do Persians have to say about this, if they read these poems in the first place?