gay - hamjens baz?

[kalemiye]

And you're right, here in Andalusia it's free to have the sex change operation. It has to be previously approved by a psychologist of the health care system, though, so that he can certify that the patient feels he/she really belongs to the other gender.

It's quite the same here. a psychologist must approve it and I think there are also medical tests for the level of hormones, etc. However, I think the approval of parents is also a condition (at least here). Some parents may don't agree as they find it a disgrace. How about there? Do parents always agree? Or the approval of parents is not a condition?

Certainly, underage kids cannot have this surgery, they are only able to decided such an important matter when they are adults. Also, as loqu said, before having surgery done, the patient must undergo medical and psychological treatment. Since they are older than 18 years-old, no parental agreement is needed.

I forgot to say that there is a transexual woman that is very popular here in Spain, search "Bibiana Fernández". I've seen several interviews of her on tv and she has a great sense of humour and I like the way she exposes her point of view.

[Sisyphe]

Alijsh, concealing or divulging your sexual orientation is always a slippery situation, and everyone decides differently. Naturally, those who aren't open about their sexual orientation (closeted people, we call them) wouldn't say anything to begin with, but even if you are out (open about your sexual orientation, that is), it's not...in the United States, at least, the best first impression to make, saying that you have a boyfriend/girlfriend of the same sex, or hinting to that fact in another way...It would only make things awkward though, not put you in danger or under a major stigma like in Iran, though.

[most-wanted]

If I were to have sex with a man, my father ( but not my brother) would surely kill me, but if this case were with a girl I don't know what would happen.

The very lame reason.

Homosexuality is as old as heterosexuality among humans and it exists in all places and all civilisations. Just

Sorry i wanted to write in detail but i have don't time right now.
So i have got a question.Do you support Unisexuality.
how is it possible that someone is unisexual ?

[ego]

What's unisexuality? I only support what's natural and what God makes.

[Shannenms]

1-Do gays think about anything other than sex when they meet each other?

Why would you think that? Of course we do.

If they do, they are not gays.

Why do you say that?

2-How can you justify that there is love not lust?

Gay couples abound, at least here in California where I live [i.e. I personally know people like this]. They are involved in committed relationships that are not different from those that heterosexuals are involved in - some even have children.

3-What contribution do gays to the society, other than corrupting it?

What about I answer, and then you make a judgement? Well, as far as your culture is concerned, I've mentioned Sa'di, Hafez, Khayyam, and so on...the works of these writers, for instance, form quite a large bulk of the standard repertoire of Persian literature, thus altering the national consciousness of the Iranian people. Many famous writers, artists, politicians and so on are gay, in the Western World. Here is a lengthy list you might want to browse through.

4-Don't you think that your thought about homosexuality is not able to answer a simple question of reproduction?

I didn't see a problem really, no. Let me ask you...what do you think of heterosexual couples that do not have children? What about older couples that marry after the woman has passed childbearing age? As I see it, the validity of a relationship is not established by the ability and willingness of its partners to have children. I respect if you think so, but that doesn't mirror reality where I live, at least.

5-How is this attraction?

I'm going to need you to rephrase this question. Sorry.

6-Invitation of other people to be gay is part of this community?

No, I don't invite people to be gay, and I don't believe people can become gay either. Think about this shannenms...if Persian society is so adamantly against homosexuality, wouldn't it be easier not to be gay? Why would someone choose it? I have family that doesn't talk to me because I am gay. I assure you I don't like that, and that my life would be easier if I were heterosexual. You don't choose who you are attracted to, and inviting someone who isn't gay to be gay just wouldn't make much sense to me...

Let me ask you systematically in order I might not deviate from your explanation.
Out of your replies I have found out that:
1-You are convinced that some people are born gay.
2-Homosexuality is only a sexual orientation and nothing more.

If you think you have meant otherwise please let me, in order I proceed to ask you more and express my opinin ( If you want to. of course!)
I am still waiting for more PMs from you.
Thanks.

[Shannenms]

What's unisexuality? I only support what's natural and what God makes.

I totally agree with you, ego

[Shannenms]

If I were to have sex with a man, my father ( but not my brother) would surely kill me, but if this case were with a girl I don't know what would happen.

The very lame reason.

I didn't reason with anything, I was trying to put in words what was really going on Iran.
By the way, I don't know what you are trying to say by quoting from me.

[Ariki]

I hope nobody minds me joining this party over here . I was just scrolling through the VSL and I thought I'd visit the Persian forum for a change. I was surprized to find this thread here...

It seems to me that homosexuality in the Middle East is seen more or less the same as paedophilia according to the information supplies on previous pages. Because of this association homosexuality is understandably seen as something unnatural and immoral.

It also seems that homosexuality is seen as a very "sexual" thing in the Middle East. That is what any sexuality is at its most base level it is about reproduction and how one achieves it emotions aside.

Since this is mostly focused on men, a saying that I once heard went like this "men are like golfers, they just go from hole to hole." This seems to be what Shannenms is saying but in just a more polite fashion.

In New Zealand, homosexuality is pretty much the same as other places in the "West" much to be my disdain because it means that Maori men who have sex with men are using non-Maori methods of identity. Also to my disdain is the use of non-Maori indicators of sexuality being used by Maoridom as a whole (i.e. men don't cry - fortunately this is breaking as younger generations of Maori are being raised by their elders who are teaching them traditional values as opposed to the norms of the West that were prevalent in NZ that the children of the now old people were (in some cases) willing to adopt). I prefer the more traditional "who cares" approach because as far as I'm concerned it bothers me not what others do at night and who they do it with.

When I talk about mannerisms that ranges from how one carries oneself, their accent and what they believe their role is in a traditional Maori setting. A gay man/non-female who tries to do a female function and vice versa (lesbian women/non-males) deserves the full wrath of the elders because they're breaking ritual and are putting everyone at risk of spiritual danger (though "straight" people can also break ritual and they too equally deserve the anger of the elders if they break customs).

Traditionally Maori did not distinguish someone via sexuality. There was no need to. People were people, so if you slept with a bro one night and the next with a woman it didn't matter. The closest word in Maori that represents "homosexuality" is "takatapui" and that only refers to two people of the same gender having a platonic relationship, sometimes sexual. But yet you don't find the opposite, "straight" to describe two people of two different genders having a deep relationship. Traditionally there is no Maori word for bisexual either.

But we did have a word for effeminate men, which is whakawahine (to act like a lady). Though they didn't carry out any ritual functions and participated mainly in female roles. This kind of behaviour was common across the Pacific, though, I'm too sure if it was present at the time of European contact on Rapa Nui since there doesn't seem to be a similar term, or any term at all, for behaviours that differ from heterosexual.

These days we do have words for the different Western sexualities but these are largely constructed. For me, a person is a person first and sexuality is not that important. If only more people shared this view a lot of persecution would end...

[Shannenms]

Since this is mostly focused on men, a saying that I once heard went like this "men are like golfers, they just go from hole to hole." This seems to be what Shannenms is saying but in just a more polite fashion.

You are right about me, and I am happy that get what I was trying to say.
I focused on gays not lesbians for three reasons:
1-There is no lesbian in Iran accotding to the common definition.
2-I was shocked when I heard Sisuphe is a gay.
3-Gays are more abusive, dangerous and destructive to the society.

[Ariki]

Since this is mostly focused on men, a saying that I once heard went like this "men are like golfers, they just go from hole to hole." This seems to be what Shannenms is saying but in just a more polite fashion.

You are right about me, and I am happy that get what I was trying to say.
I focused on gays not lesbians for three reasons:
1-There is no lesbian in Iran accotding to the common definition.
2-I was shocked when I heard Sisuphe is a gay.
3-Gays are more abusive, dangerous and destructive to the society.

I'm sure Sysphe may have disappointed many women by being gay. But such is the case for women these days - all the good men are either taken or gay

I was wondering if you could perhaps elaborate what you mean by the third point. In what way are gays abusive, dangerous and destructive to society. Would you be able to provide some examples???

[most-wanted]

I'm sure Sysphe may have disappointed many women by being gay.

I didn't reason with anything, I was trying to put in words what was really going on Iran.
By the way, I don't know what you are trying to say by quoting from me.

*"I will not have sex before mariage,becauce of religion/culture" could have been a better reason.
You will be killed by your father is something which was done in 16th centuries.In Europe now a days it is only in Novels.e.g emilia galotti
According to your informations.You really need a revolution in Iran.Ahmadinejad schouldn't have been asked about gayism rather hetroism.

It's just a highly stigmatized dialect

It would only make things awkward though, not put you in danger or under a major stigma like in Iran, though.

Is stigma your fave word ?

According to your ideas gayism come by nature.
According to mine sexual desire in general come by nature.And if someone is a gay.It is because of lack of his self-control.And Child Abusing and Unisexuality are all because of lack of self-control.

Are you agree to give child Abusing and Unisexuals rights to be openly in a community?

[alijsh]

According to your informations.You really need a revolution in Iran.Ahmadinejad schouldn't have been asked about gayism rather hetroism.

What do you mean? Is it related to "I will not have sex before mariage,becauce of religion/culture"? If so, it's a cultural matter and has nothing to do with the government. So no revolution can help it.

[most-wanted]

What do you mean? Is it related to "I will not have sex before mariage,becauce of religion/culture"? If so, it's a cultural matter and has nothing to do with the government. So no revolution can help it.

It was culture slash religion.The religion is enforced by the government.And religion is a part of culture.

[alijsh]

It was culture slash religion.The religion is enforced by the government.And religion is a part of culture.

No. virginity is not enforced by the government. It's a public culture: farhange mardomi (folkculture?). People themselves consider virginity a value. It has been always so (pre- and post-revolution) and has nothing to do with the ruling government. So if some people find it enforcing, they must know that this enforcement is from public culture and not the government.

[Sisyphe]

Let me ask you systematically in order I might not deviate from your explanation.
Out of your replies I have found out that:
1-You are convinced that some people are born gay.
2-Homosexuality is only a sexual orientation and nothing more.

If you think you have meant otherwise please let me, in order I proceed to ask you more and express my opinin ( If you want to. of course!)
I am still waiting for more PMs from you.
Thanks.

1. Yes, I believe that romantic/sensual/sexual desire is inherent in a person, not acquired. Think about it this way...with all of the opposition that gays in Iran go through, why wouldn't they simply choose not to be? Wouldn't it make their lives easier? - I certainly think so. But that makes why they don't clear...at least to me...they don't because they can't.
2. Homosexuality has to do with sex too, of course. I was attempting to demonstrate to you, though, that sex is only a part of homosexuality in the West, since it seems not to be the same case to you in your society.

BTW, It's really late here...I'll send you corrections when I wake up tomorrow.


Also...welcome Riki! Good to have you in our little corner.

I'm sure Sysphe may have disappointed many women by being gay.

I've been told that before...

Is stigma your fave word ?

No, I'd prefer that society be without its stigmas, but unfortunately, it isn't.

According to your ideas gayism come by nature.
According to mine sexual desire in general come by nature.And if someone is a gay.It is because of lack of his self-control.And Child Abusing and Unisexuality are all because of lack of self-control.

Let me get this straight...you think a person can be gay by nature, but that they need to control themselves?

Most-wanted, I'll get to your second question tomorrow...My brain is fried tonight.

[ego]

Since most-wanted said gays need medicines.. I've heard that homosexuality can be "treated" through hormonotherapy. Or some say with psychological treatment. Ever heard of any such thing?

[kalemiye]

Since most-wanted said gays need medicines.. I've heard that homosexuality can be "treated" through hormonotherapy. Or some say with psychological treatment. Ever heard of any such thing?

Yes, of course I've heard that crap, but I want to see ıf ıt really works...

[Shannenms]

1. Yes, I believe that romantic/sensual/sexual desire is inherent in a person, not acquired. Think about it this way...with all of the opposition that gays in Iran go through, why wouldn't they simply choose not to be? Wouldn't it make their lives easier? - I certainly think so. But that makes why they don't clear...at least to me...they don't because they can't.
2. Homosexuality has to do with sex too, of course. I was attempting to demonstrate to you, though, that sex is only a part of homosexuality in the West, since it seems not to be the same case to you in your society.

OK, referring to your first phrase above, if you believe so, do you believe it is not normal to be born in that way? I mean the minority of this gay community confirms this anormality as far as natural reproduction is concerned?

[Shannenms]

It was culture slash religion.The religion is enforced by the government.And religion is a part of culture.

No. virginity is not enforced by the government. It's a public culture: farhange mardomi (folkculture?). People themselves consider virginity a value. It has been always so (pre- and post-revolution) and has nothing to do with the ruling government. So if some people find it enforcing, they must know that this enforcement is from public culture and not the government.

Keeping virginity is not peculair to Iran, every culture whether in the past or at present confirmed such virtue.

[Shannenms]

I was wondering if you could perhaps elaborate what you mean by the third point. In what way are gays abusive, dangerous and destructive to society. Would you be able to provide some examples???

Finding partner for a homosexual is not as easy as for a hetrosexual. This may cause using a homosexual to resort to force in finding his partner.

OK?